Feature #3043

freight wagons

Added by Eddi about 8 years ago. Updated over 7 years ago.

Status:NewStart date:2011-09-07
Priority:NormalDue date:
Assignee:-% Done:

0%

Category:-
Target version:-

Description

We need to discuss a system of freight wagons that achieves the following goals:
  • a method to transport all cargos at all times
  • a method to distinguish between track classes (if a track class grf is loaded)
  • a method to transport more cargo in the later parts of the game
  • sprinkles of "realism" on top of all that
the crude scheme in the tracking table contains these wagon types:
  • Luggage Wagon - mail, express and armored cargos
  • Closed Wagon - piece goods
  • Wood Wagon - Wood (unprocessed)
  • Lidded gondola - sheltered cargo
  • Open gondola - bulk, except sheltered
  • Stake wagon - Steel
  • Flat wagon - oversized
  • Refrigerated wagon - refrigerated
  • Livestock wagon - Livestock
  • Tank wagon - liquid

if anyone finds a cargo that cannot be (sensibly) carried with these wagons, make a comment below.

Now for the problem of railtypes. There are generally three options:
  • ignore railtypes completely (this is my least favourite)
  • change capacities and track class by refitting (this may need changes to CB36). this means a longer refit list (comparable to HEQS industrial trams)
  • offer separate wagons for each track class. this means a longer purchase list
about growth of capacity over time, this might be modelled with the track classes. e.g.:
  • in 1880 allow only 16t wagons/refits
  • in 1900 allow 16t and 18t wagons/refits
  • in 1925 allow 16t, 18t and 20t wagons/refits
  • in 1950 allow 18t and 20t wagons/refits
  • in 1980 allow 18t, 20t and 22.5t wagons/refits
  • (possibly after 2000 also allow 25t wagons for bulk cargo)

if a rail grf without track class separation is loaded, only use the highest capacity.

History

#1 Updated by Eddi about 8 years ago

that it is not forgotten when the time comes, there is a discussion about bulk cargo colours here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=969168#p969168

#2 Updated by oberhuemer about 8 years ago

There are enough types to transport everything, I'd only say splitting flatcars into heavy and regular versions would be good. Maybe there ought to be some extra ones for the extended set, but why think about that now.
I still need to give the rest some thought.

#3 Updated by Eddi about 8 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature

#4 Updated by oberhuemer about 8 years ago

I'm for option 3, it's the easiest and won't cause too much purchase list clog either considering that not all types will realistically have all weight variants, and some should also expire. I'd say a long purchase list is also easier to deal with than a long refit list, only one GUI to open and it's more common.

#5 Updated by Eddi about 8 years ago

i read a tiny bit upon history of freight wagons until 1945.
Sources:
http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/fg/e2f_gwix.html (and subpages)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalien_(Eisenbahn)#Normalien_f.C3.BCr_G.C3.BCterwagen

Historically, this period can be separated in four sections:
  • Güterwagen der Länderbahnbauart: until ca. 1910
  • Güterwagen der Verbandsbauart: ca. 1910-1925
  • Güterwagen der Austauschbauart: ca. 1925-1940
  • Güterwagen der Kriegsbauart: ca. 1940-1945

Länderbahnbauart:
capacity ca. 10t

Verbandsbauart:
capacity ca. 15t

Austauschbauart:
capacity ca. 15t
hopper wagons for bulk cargo up to 60t (on track class C)
increased speed

Kriegsbauart:
capacity ca. 20-25t

#6 Updated by michi_cc about 8 years ago

Some (random) notes on NewGRF cargoes:

  • Mostly FIRS (and some ECS) has cargoes with up to three cargo classes, for example BEER (exp+piece+liquid) or MILK (exp+liquid+refrig). Some scheme has to be devised so those cargoes do not end up as refit options for almost all freight wagons.
    • A Packwagen should probably not allow all express cargo (e.g. MNSP piece+exp)
    • Review how to handle piece+liquid cargoes (mostly ECS)
    • WDPR is bulk+piece
  • Especially early Offene Güterwagen carried more than just bulk cargo, the FIRS supplies (piece+exp) for example could very well go into open wagons as well.
  • Faster cargo ageing for refrigerated cargo in normal wagons.

#7 Updated by Eddi about 8 years ago

i tried reshuffling the cargo scheme, testing with FIRS (so might still be off for ECS)

  • MILK and BEER are tricky, i added them to closed and mail wagons now. mail wagons should now carry most town-based cargos
  • early cargo wagons now removed the tank wagons, added liquid cargos to open wagons (barrels)

please do check for further inconsistencies/oddities.

michi_cc wrote:

Faster cargo ageing for refrigerated cargo in normal wagons.

i'm rather thinking the other way round. normal wagons have "normal" decay rate, while the increasingly advanced refrigerated wagons lower the decay rate

#8 Updated by michi_cc about 8 years ago

Eddi wrote:

i'm rather thinking the other way round. normal wagons have "normal" decay rate, while the increasingly advanced refrigerated wagons lower the decay rate

Well, an industry set that changes the payment curve for a refrigerated cargo will likely be balanced for the default decay rate, so lowering the decay would increase income over what was intended. I'm not sure if that would be a real problem though, so lowering the decay might be fine, too.

#9 Updated by michi_cc almost 8 years ago

Don't know how important this is, but FooBar has posted a nice table with some cargo colour schemes usable with re-colour sprites.

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=982482#p982482

#10 Updated by oberhuemer almost 8 years ago

Done. Anyway, for speeds: very first generation 5 km/h faster, third generation (from 1940-50) 80/100 km/h, then upgrade the slower ones to 100 and introduce 120 km/h ones from 1970-5. Finally some "super-fast" 140 or 160 km/h cars around 1990 (haven't really been able to find any).

#11 Updated by oberhuemer almost 8 years ago

I've cooked up a freight car scheme for after 1950. Check it out, if you please - the only data present are for speed and introduction year up to now.

#12 Updated by Eddi almost 8 years ago

what are your motivations for these speed changes (especially the early ones)? freight transport used to be really slow most of the time, and we try to model actual travel speed and not some theoretical max speed. also i find 80/100km/h during the "war gap" kinda exaggerated. i don't believe anything like that actually happened. the 90km/h that i put for the "fast" freight wagons is probably already a stretch (although i don't have any reliable data for that)

also, why did you change/remove the hopper wagons? they were supposed to model the different capacities for the axle weights (we possibly need a method to hide them when no appropriate track grf is loaded)

#13 Updated by oberhuemer almost 8 years ago

Well, the post-war models could be moved to become available in 1955, the 90 changed to 85, and the newest generation to 1975. The reason why I upped early freight speeds is mainly to give some sort of advantage over narrow gauge.
Hoppers: The "real real" way would be to change the track class by load percentage, will elaborate further.

#14 Updated by Eddi almost 8 years ago

i've changed the cargo classes of all vehicles, so they are now controlled from a central place (at the end of the table)

specific cargos need adjusting after a test in game.

#15 Updated by oberhuemer almost 8 years ago

There's no reason to use powder carriers or car transporters at the moment - needs to be changed, or they need to go to extended.

#16 Updated by michi_cc almost 8 years ago

The cargo class 'Powderized (moist protected)' is for some time included in the "official" cargo class list. I don't know if there's an industry set that uses it already, if not, FIRS likely to start using it. I guess it would be okay if powder carries are only available if there's also a powderized cargo, but they should still be core.

#17 Updated by Eddi almost 8 years ago

there are (imho) two opposite ways how to make the specialized wagons useful:

1. exclude the cargos from the more generic wagons. i.e. things that go into the powder wagons won't go into the open wagons. this may hurt when trying to build a network with autorefit (which we need to adress in the future, i didn't look into it yet)
2. introduce measures so the generic wagons are discouraged. e.g. the notion of "length" and "volume" (i.e. reduce capacity), or variable decay rates.

#18 Updated by oberhuemer over 7 years ago

Found two lists of freight car numbers around 1910 (http://hafenbahnhof.de/vorbild/gueterzuege.htm , http://www.themt.de/org-0310-49.html ). Three ways to reevaluate whether a wagon is "core" or not: real numbers, how common its load is in TTD or a combination.
The livestock cars, for example, would probably leave it by # 1 - even all types together only reach ~1% (?). I say # 3, meaning someone will need to "work" and find out # 2...

#19 Updated by oberhuemer over 7 years ago

In:
- Covered hoppers (new)

Out:
- All livestock cars (very rare and alternatives available)
- All car transporters (rare (?) and usually useless, replacements exist)
- Austausch lidded (replaced by covered hopper)
- Two-axle hoppers (redundant to four-axle versions, less capacity)
- Powder cars (cargos can more or less be transported in covered hoppers, which can carry more per length)

Possibly out:
- First-generation refrigerated wagon - not a lot of cooling strength?

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